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Author
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Topic: Wellstone vs. Coleman
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Patti Pagan
Punk Posts: 1447
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 10-25-2002 02:00 PM
   
Me too. IP: Logged |
J.Free
Punk Posts: 139
Registered: May 2000
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posted 10-25-2002 03:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Missy Bigbritches:My parents and their pals (age is early 60s) are completely fed up with negative ads in this race (from both sides, they claim). They say they want more of the individual's personality and not badmouthing each other. Working for one of the candidates, I don't see it. It could that I dislike the other so much; I don't know. Am I numb or are others my age (39) just so used to 'negative' ads that we tune them out? I mean, are the political ads today that different from any other campaign?
I'm only a few years older than you, Missy, and for as long as I can remember, these kind of opponent-bashing tactics have been a part of campaigns; in recent years, however, they seem to have completely taken over the campaigns themselves.I'm with your parents on this one - it really doesn't say much about the integrity of a politician, if the best campaign they can come up with is something that just slags the other candidate. I don't want to hear what the other person can't do, or what they've done wrong; I want to hear what this person can do, or what they believe they will be able to do right. I will never, ever, vote for someone whose campaign focuses on the other person's failures. Then again, our system is so thoroughly fucked to begin with, that I have a hard time believing anyone's vote really means squat. Kind of like the saying, "no matter who you voted for, the government still got in", you know? The politicians aren't the real problem, in my book - it's the people that put them there. Sorry if this isn't exactly a popular sentiment, but I don't require any legislation to give me the right to have an opinion. IP: Logged |
Evil Angel
Punk Posts: 1718
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 10-26-2002 11:15 PM
I really don't like it when other politics were badmouthing each other. It's really hard for me to sit and give them time and listen to them. I have no tolerance for bad-mouthing folks.IP: Logged |
Clyde
Punk Posts: 1281
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 10-29-2002 10:11 PM
Boy, who do I have to kill to get 4 FREE hours of political campaigning on TV? It's a virtual DFL love fest down there & I thought the convention was months ago.IP: Logged |
2fisted
Punk Posts: 1825
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 10-30-2002 02:45 AM
Gawd it burns me up, Paul is ROLLING in his grave! The 1 principled Dem is being used for champaign votes
like a... AAAAA! It makes me sick! Of course I ripped Wellstone for his views, but the guy had true beliefs! He
didn't just lick his finger & stick it in the air, He truly thought a liberal world was the way. He didn't care if it ment
his downfall or not, now the Democratic elite HIERARCHY is moving in to "save the senate". Just another smug
good ol boys club.... Paul, I hope some of your fellow Dems figure it out. R.I.P.  IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger
Punk Posts: 899
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 08:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by 2fisted:
Gawd it burns me up, Paul is ROLLING in his grave! The 1 principled Dem is being used for champaign votes
like a...
I admit it's not the outcome I would have prefered, but it's not like the Dems had any time on this one. It's like blowing out the crotch of your suit pants getting ready to go to the prom...not a lot you can do but grab the nicest pair of pants in the closet and go.
As a sidebar, even as a liberal, I was really put off by Rick Kahn's speech last night.. it was highly inappropriate. What was he thinking??IP: Logged |
Clyde
Punk Posts: 1281
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 10-30-2002 09:23 AM
I went to high school with Dave McLaughlin, who's brother died with Paul. It's always strange seeing someone after many years when they're all grown up. I hope if anything ever happens to me, my brother speaks about me so well or vice versa.IP: Logged |
Scoot-core
Punk Posts: 267
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 09:30 AM
I don't think that there are any apologies in order. Not at all. Look, Wellstone lead a political life. He drew people to him through his energy to fight for people. So the fact that the speakers at the memorial urged people to continue that fight on, and to work for what he worked for was not only appropriate, but necessary.I'm SO damn sick of democrats and liberals continually apologizing for stuff that the right would NEVER apologize for. If the politics were switched, the right would have gone much much further to politicize the loss. No doubt. IP: Logged |
Karnal
Punk Posts: 41
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 09:34 AM
Just listening to my favorite "left of the dial" MPR. Norm was shooting off his mouth regarding the "fight" that is in store in the next 6 days. What a phony piece of shit. I can only hope that the loss of Wellstone will energize not merely Minnesota, but wake up the whole freakin' nation and people will figure out to do the right thing. IP: Logged |
vendetta77
Punk Posts: 1170
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-30-2002 09:40 AM
ahhh. the office is a'buzz with this topic today. Yeah, he turned the memorial into a forum to voice his (and wellstone's, I might add) political views, but the 'publicans would have done the same thing, probably ten fold... IP: Logged |
stinkbot
Punk Posts: 1072
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 09:40 AM
last night was ugly.
how the hell does a memorial ceremony become a campaign rally?
i guess invite 70 U.S. Senators, a former president, a former vice president, michael j. fox and some sheep.IP: Logged |
nunsoup
Punk Posts: 453
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 09:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Scoot-core:
I don't think that there are any apologies in order. Not at all. Look, Wellstone lead a political life. He drew people to him through his energy to fight for people. So the fact that the speakers at the memorial urged people to continue that fight on, and to work for what he worked for was not only appropriate, but necessary.I'm SO damn sick of democrats and liberals continually apologizing for stuff that the right would NEVER apologize for. If the politics were switched, the right would have gone much much further to politicize the loss. No doubt.
i'm inclined to agree with you. i was a bit disappointed with rick kahn's antics, yelling at ramstad and whatnot, but the overall tone was in celebration of the wellstones and campaign staff's lives (with a notable exception of the pilots?).
the republicans would have done it a million times worse. IP: Logged |
zomzom
Punk Posts: 77342222
Registered: Mar 1920
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posted 10-30-2002 09:45 AM
Seeing as the present is not a fantasyland of A Beautiful Anarchist Society where Everyone Treats Each Other Fairly Causing No Harm To Others, I'm still going to vote.
I'm unemployed. My super-weak almost useless vote will be mostly a vote against Norman Coleman, former Jew turned Christian, former Democrat turned Republican.
Mayor Quimby indeed. "Er..ah.. I'll never have a chance to be President if I'm Jewish, and err ahhh... the Republican party seems to be popular..."Really, let's live in the now.
Yeah, the system is totally corrupt, unfair, evil, etc. This is how things turned out. There is not going to be a major revolution in my lifetime. People hate each other, communism is dead, anarchy will never work because there will always be pigs that want power and control.
If you own property, run a business, work a job, pay taxes and don't vote, that's fine with me. Dig your own grave. IP: Logged |
stinkbot
Punk Posts: 1072
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 09:48 AM
dunno iffin it's been posted.... www.bushboy.com IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger
Punk Posts: 899
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 10:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Scoot-core:
I don't think that there are any apologies in order. Not at all. Look, Wellstone lead a political life.
Right. He led a political life. In that political life, he reached out to Republicans on issues and was always respectful and classy, regardless of how he may have differed on opinions.
Look, I'm no fan of Trent Lott, but that he and other Republicans would fly halfway across the country to pay their respects shows something of the type of man Wellstone was, and the type of impact he had on people of opposing views. That Lott and others should then be booed shows a great deal of the charactor of some of those in attendence. What should have been a dignified event turned into an episode of Jerry Springer.
As a liberal, I was mortified and embarrassed.
If I was a Republican, I'd be livid. I'd demand equal time from local stations for at least the time of Rick Kahn's disgraceful speech. To chalk it up to his "passion" is bullshit. Do you think for one minute, that Mike Erlandson and the Dems didn't know or endorse what he was going to say? Do you think they didn't know it was going to be televised all over the state? Do you think Wellstone himself would have turned it into a campaign rally? No--because he put people before politics.
The notion that if the tables were turned the Republicans would have done the same thing is inconsequential. They do what they do, but I'd like to think that we are better than that. I'm sorry, but Rick Kahn's speech last night really soured me. I thought it was one of the least classy things I've ever seen. IP: Logged |
tinman
Punk Posts: 351
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 10:59 AM
last nights award sho.. er.. memorial was unbelievable.
the bright side (asides from a couple of cutaways to the lovely leslie ball)
was thinking about how the coleman camp must have been going apeshit.IP: Logged |
Karnal
Punk Posts: 41
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 11:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by stinkbot:
dunno iffin it's been posted.... www.bushboy.com
Freakin' Brilliant. Thanks. IP: Logged |
Patti Pagan
Punk Posts: 1447
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 10-30-2002 11:32 AM
I only saw the first hour or so, went to Soft Boys, & then couldn't believe when I was driving home at 10 p.m. that the memorial was just then winding up. (Un)Fortunately, I didn't hear Kahn's harangue but in reading excerpts today, I suspect I would have been embarrassed. Happily, Kahn won't be the new DFL candidate, it (allegedly) will be Walter Mondale, who remains a class act. GOOOO Fritz!IP: Logged |
HooliganKat
Punk Posts: 1195
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 11:35 AM
Dodger, again you beat me to it, and nailed it perfectly.I realize that Paul was a man who was very spirited with politics and that was his life. So talk about that, don't talk about the future of the Democratic Party. A Memorial is just that, REMEMBERING WHAT SOMEONE HAD DONE IN LIFE. There is still plenty of time to hold "rallies". I found this an absolute disgrace, and I feel embarrassed, and ashamed for all those that attended and participated in that circus. Those that are friends and family of those lost deserved better than that.
Now on to the topic at hand. I personally find that whether you vote democrat or republican it doesn't matter. The 2 parties in MN are so much alike that it all comes down to small minor details. Norm Coleman is not that bad, and if he does get in, don't worry, the homeless will still be helped, the poor families will still get assistance, and abortion will not be banned, battered women will still have their shelters to seek protection.
Also I'd like to point out that Norm helped turn Saint Paul into a fantastic city, he helped 18,000 people get tax paying jobs. Instead of helping those that sit on their ass and collect welfare and unemployment that I'm paying for.
And before you jump all over me with not everyone who get assistance does that I realize that, however let me tell you, I work in the staffing industry, I see day after day all these people who come in here and work for us for 3 days then decide they "don't like their job" don't show up, and don't call and then expect us to pay for their unemployment so they can sit on their ass. IT HAPPENS ALL THE FUCKING TIME! Yeah, I hate my job, I hate it more than life, but it's something that has to be done. NOT EVERYTHING IN LIFE IS FUN OR OPTIONAL.
Why am I being penalized because I choose to be responsible and not have children because I'm not financially prepared? Why should I be penalized because I am working citizen with a full time job and pay taxes. Because of this "everyone deserves a chance philosophy" That's why. PEOPLE FUCKING MOVE HERE BECAUSE OF OUR WELFARE BENEFITS.
Yeah so what, Norm switched from Jew to Christian, I went from Christian to nothing so does that make me a bad person? Yeah so what he switched from Democrat to Republican, He did it so that he could run for an office that he wanted. Which he did a fantastic job of. You cannot tell me that Saint Paul is not better now than it was before. If he can do that with a city in the time he was in office, think of how he could better MN. [This message has been edited by HooliganKat (edited 10-30-2002).] IP: Logged |
stu
Punk Posts: 308
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 10-30-2002 11:52 AM
I went to the memorial service last night, but I left the arena just before the individual eulogies began because my wife and I had to meet some friends. The beginning was very nice, but when all of the politicians and celebrities marched in it took on a rather festive atmoshpere. I'll admit, as liberal I cheered at the images of Jesse Jackson, Bill & Hilary Clinton, Walter Mondale, and Al Gore, but when they booed Trent Lott I became very disgusted. It may sound silly but I was cheering for the people to thank them for coming, I even applauded when Trent Lott was shown on the screen. This morning on the radio MPR was reporting that Ventura was booed which I don't believe happened. He wasn't cheered but he sure wasn't booed. I didn't see or hear Kahn's speech, but it sounds like it was pretty inappropriate. I don't care what people say if it was a Republican's memorial serviceand the same type of thing happened the Dems and liberals would be throwing a fit, and rightfully so. IP: Logged |
tinman
Punk Posts: 351
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 11:52 AM
http://www.citypages.com/databank/23/1140/article10766.asp IP: Logged |
nunsoup
Punk Posts: 453
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 12:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by stu:
This morning on the radio MPR was reporting that Ventura was booed which I don't believe happened. He wasn't cheered but he sure wasn't booed.
i was watching on tv and heard him booed loudly. it definitely happened. quite unfortunate. IP: Logged |
HooliganKat
Punk Posts: 1195
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 12:46 PM
Even Minneapolis, whose two-term mayor was drummed out of office last year, had a better track record than St. Paul, with 28,303 new jobs generated, a rise of 10.1 percent.-The population of Mpls is more than Saint Paul is I should hope there would be more of an increase. And I say congratualtions to the other mayors etc who increased their jobs as well, However I was talking about Norm Coleman and what he did. Not the state of MN. -And about the companies he brought in. Does he run those companies? No, HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEMISE OF THESE COMPANIES, so why should he be discredited for it? He wasn't the one that ran them into the ground, that was their own doing. IP: Logged |
monty carlos
Punk Posts: 1164
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 12:57 PM
I used to have an okay opinion of Norm. But after watching this drama play out for a year, and knowing what kinda of cheap hustlers Bush & Cheney's ilk are, the Norm we knew will be nothing but a rubber stamp for Bush's policy.And that can't happen. In politics, favors from the influential do not come cheap, and Norm is selling his soul as we post. IP: Logged |
Reno
Punk Posts: 1470
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 10-30-2002 01:20 PM
I heard "Slick Norm-ie" beginning his renewed campaign this morning. His scriptwriter made sure to italicize all the important words to hit."....Need leadership for the future........blah blah, fight tirelessly...blah blah" Subtle Norm, you're a classy guy. Why not just go for it and mention nap time......adult diapers.....old duffer.....doddering...etc..? IP: Logged |
Pete Scholtes
Punk Posts: 337
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-30-2002 01:33 PM
I'll add my voice to the chorus: Dodger is on the money. Certain crowd behavior in a mass situation can't be helped, and the family did choose Khan... But somebody should have laid some ground rules. His speech wasn't just inappropriate, it was ridiculous and destructive. "Crushed by a river of tears?" That was only the start.To paraphrase, he said that we had a choice between continuing Wellstone's legacy into the future or ending it forever. Forever! He asked the Republicans to put aside partisan bickering for a week and support... whatever Democrat replaces Paul! It isn't liberal masochism on my part to point out that: A.) The speech insulted the intelligence of everyone present B.) It was politically stupid for the Democrats. And C.) It was repulsive to anyone who feels Paul Wellstone's legacy stood for something more than Democratic control of the senate. I don't know if that speech will have any effect on the election, but it couldn't have helped the DFL. IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger
Punk Posts: 899
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 01:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Pete Scholtes:
I don't know if that speech will have any effect on the election, but it couldn't have helped the DFL.
Exactly. On top of being tacky, it was a massive tactical blunder
Picture what the headlines could been:
"Both Parties Mourn the Loss of Wellstone".
Instead, look at the headlines:
"Tone of Wellstone Memorial Generates Anger" --CNN
"Republicans Decry Service As Partisan" --Star & Tribune Yep.. the sympathy factor was pissed away and Republicans are angry and invigorated.
Very, very stupid move. IP: Logged |
Scoot-core
Punk Posts: 267
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 02:41 PM
I certainly agree that even a slime like Trent Lott shouldn't have been booed. I wasn't sure, but I thought that I heard some boos on TV. (but, hell, I would have had to hold myself back from booing the Clintons.) I also didn't catch all of Kahn's speech. The stuff said to Republicans sounds inappropriate. It sure doesn't outrage me though. And the rest of what he said struck home with me. Like, when he was challenging people to do something and get inspired. On the other hand, Rudy Boshwitz (sp?) himself said today that he didn't find the memorial/rally innappropriate. IP: Logged |
stu
Punk Posts: 308
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 10-30-2002 02:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by HooliganKat:
-The population of Mpls is more than Saint Paul is I should hope there would be more of an increase. And I say congratualtions to the other mayors etc who increased their jobs as well, However I was talking about Norm Coleman and what he did. Not the state of MN.
It speaks of an increase in percentage, not total number of jobs. Therefore the size of the city's population is irrelevant. quote:
-And about the companies he brought in. Does he run those companies? No, HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEMISE OF THESE COMPANIES, so why should he be discredited for it? He wasn't the one that ran them into the ground, that was their own doing.
Pehraps he isn't the reason for their demise, but the whole point of giving these companies sweetheart deals is so they can be a good tax base for the city. It's an investment, and the investment went sour. So he can take a lot of the blame for a foolish investment. IP: Logged |
Patti Pagan
Punk Posts: 1447
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 10-30-2002 03:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by HooliganKat:
<snip> Also I'd like to point out that Norm helped turn Saint Paul into a fantastic city, he helped 18,000 people get tax paying jobs. <snip> [This message has been edited by HooliganKat (edited 10-30-2002).]
If he did such a great job for the people of St. Paul, why did he lose St. Paul in the gubernatorial race four years ago?
IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger
Punk Posts: 899
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 03:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Scoot-core:
On the other hand, Rudy Boshwitz (sp?) himself said today that he didn't find the memorial/rally innappropriate.
With all due respect to the former Senator, he thought he was at a basketball game. I'm pretty sure Rudy couldn't find his butt if it had a bell on it.But.. that reminds of a Simpson's Moment:
Audience: Boo! Boo!
Burns: Smithers...are they booing me?
Smithers: Uh, no, they're saying "Boo-urns! Boo-urns!"
Burns: Are you saying "boo" or "Boo-urns"?
Audience: Boo! Boo!
Hans: I was saying "Boo-urns"...
IP: Logged |
Vrooman
Punk Posts: 598
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-19-2002 01:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Vrooman:
You also forgot Jesse Helms, Trent Lott, and John Ashcroft. Okay, so they weren't in the KKK, but they are associated with white supremacist organizations such as the Council of Conservative Citizens. Not to mention, not all KKK memebers are "outed" -- Dem or Rep.
Okay, so Trent Lott is finally being pronounced by the media for what he has always been (and people have the nerve to say the media is "liberal"), a racist. I am still awaiting Ashcroft's coming out party. IP: Logged |
Patti Pagan
Punk Posts: 1447
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 12-20-2002 11:11 AM
Lott's outta there according to the NY Times a short while ago. Senator Frist from TN & a Dubya pal is campaigning hard for this position. IP: Logged |
nunsoup
Punk Posts: 453
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 12-20-2002 12:24 PM
Mmmm, Senator Frist's voting record:0% Rating with League of Conservation Voters (2001)
3% Rating with AFL/CIO (lifetime)
15% Rating with NAACP (2001)
0% Rating with National Abortion Rights Action League (2001) Yeah, he'll be better than Lott. Can't wait. Woo hoo. Here's some fun info about his scandalous past with his family's medical business: http://www.nathannewman.org/log/index.shtml#000639 IP: Logged |
thor
Punk Posts: 67
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 12-20-2002 03:34 PM
Did anybody notice Norm's inability to take a stand on the Lott situation until he knew for sure that Lott would be resigning his post as majority leader. Norm wouldn't want to say anything that would make him look like he has an opinion, now would he? He hasn't even started yet and he's already politicking like the slime that he is. IP: Logged |
Patti Pagan
Punk Posts: 1447
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 12-20-2002 03:51 PM
Yup...last night he said on the Ch. 9 news that Lott should "have the time he needs to reflect..." or something like that. A few hours ago he heartily endorsed another BushBoy--Senator Frist. All I ask is for a little consistency & integrity. IP: Logged |
trailerdiva
Punk Posts: 635
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 12-20-2002 07:31 PM
Senator Frist...kinda sounds like fist or frisk...just don't ask me to bend over near himIP: Logged |
2fisted
Punk Posts: 1825
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-20-2002 07:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by nunsoup:
Mmmm, Senator Frist's voting record:0% Rating with League of Conservation Voters (2001)
3% Rating with AFL/CIO (lifetime)
15% Rating with NAACP (2001)
0% Rating with National Abortion Rights Action League (2001) Yeah, he'll be better than Lott. Can't wait. Woo hoo.
If the NAAPC has a prob w/ Frist-he's gotta be cool!  Guess I'll just sit back & watch the lefties rip on Sen. Byrd now... IP: Logged |
Vrooman
Punk Posts: 598
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-20-2002 08:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 2fisted:
Guess I'll just sit back & watch the lefties rip on Sen. Byrd now...
In the interest of equal time.... Sen. Byrd should not be in office. Racists, reformed or otherwise, do not deserve office. There are plenty of people out there that are considerably more suitable.
BTW:
Democrat <> Leftist
Democrat <> Liberal IP: Logged |
tape deck
Punk Posts: 529
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-20-2002 10:12 PM
I'm not defending Lott in particular, but I don't know that I agree that a reformed person doesn't deserve office. Some of the most compassionate activists are ex's of a given vice: alcohol, drugs, and so forth. No one has thought more about the given situation than they have.IP: Logged |
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