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Author
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Topic: someone elses day in someone elses life
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Kubler Punk Posts: 700 Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 12:29 AM
as i've said before, i will continue to post these e mails not because we share political views or opinions, but becasue i think the sender would like to reach as many people as possible. also, this site seems long overdue for worth while reading material. following is the latest e mail i received: -----------------------------Dear family & friends, Late last week, 24 year-old Caoimhe (pronounced Queeva) Butterly of Ireland was shot by an Israeli soldier as she escorted school children to safety in the Jenin refugee camp. That same day a UN worker was shot and killed in Jenin, also by an Israeli soldier. I met Caoimhe in East Jerusalem in April. I had just left Jenin and she was on her way in. She has been there since. I wanted to share with you her account of Israel’s latest “reinvasion” of the camp and the events that led to her being shot. ++++++++++++++ November 23, 2002 In today's reinvasion of Jenin Refugee Camp, the Israeli Occupation Forces made the bottom section of the camp into a closed military zone in the morning, using about twelve tanks, ten jeeps, and at least two Apache helicopter gunships. I had been trying to get between the unarmed children and the tanks, when I received a call from a friend who wanted me to evacuate her sick daughter as the Army would not let any ambulances through. I went with a friend who is a Palestinian journalist, and we were immediately arrested, along with another international volunteer, and taken to a place where about twenty Palestinian men were being held. They were blindfolded, handcuffed, stripped to their trousers or underwear, and beaten severely. After I was detained for two hours and interrogated briefly, the Israeli soldiers said that I was free to go. I asked permission to remain with the men, hoping to minimize the violence, but the soldiers refused, saying it was not allowed. When I refused to leave, I was forcibly dragged away, pulled down the road, and told that if I returned to the area I would be shot.
I went back the way I had come, past the United Nations compound. There I spoke briefly with Iain Hook, Project Manager of UNRWA [United Nations Relief Works Agency] in Jenin, who said he was trying to negotiate with the soldiers for women and children to go home. He came out of the UN compound waving a blue UN flag, and the soldiers' only response was to broadcast with their microphone in English, "We don't care if you are the United Nations or who you are. Fuck off and go home!" They were trying to go home. Iain said that things were not going well. He insisted that he wanted to provide safe passage for his forty Palestinian workers and himself using legal means, i.e., official coordination with the Army. Some worried parents had begun to knock a hole in the wall at the back of the compound to evacuate children who were there for a vaccination program. We accompanied some of the children home. After this, I headed again to the sick girl's house. On the way I met a group of children who told me that a ten-year-old friend of mine, Muhammad Bilalo, had been killed and three children had been wounded by tank fire, one of whom sustained brain damage. So I went to where the children were gathered, and the tanks were firing on them erratically. I walked down the road between the children and the tanks until I was fifty meters from the tank, where I tried to dialogue with the soldiers. I implored them not to shoot live ammunition at unarmed children. At that point, they stopped their shooting. A few moments later, an APC drove up to the tank [an armed personnel carrier, like a tank with all the armour except a cannon]. I could see their faces very clearly and I imagine they could see mine also. I had seen both of these tanks earlier in the day. A soldier raised his upper body and his gun out of the hatch of the second vehicle and began shooting. At first he shot into the air, and most of the children dispersed, running into an alley on the left side of the street. About three small children remained, however, and I tried physically to get them to the alley, dragging and pushing them. I looked back over my shoulder and could see the soldier in the APC pointing his gun at me from about one hundred meters. Near the entrance to the alley, I was shot in the thigh. When I fell they continued shooting in my direction. I crawled part of the way up the alley, and then some of the youngsters dragged me up the rest of the way. No ambulances were allowed into the camp, so I was carried on a makeshift stretcher to where a Red Crescent ambulance could reach me near the entrance of the camp. While I was in the Emergency Room of Jenin Hospital, Iain Hook of UNRWA was brought in. He died a few minutes later. We have been told that when he was shot, the Israeli Army prohibited a clearly marked UN ambulance from evacuating him and transporting him for nearly an hour, during which time he lost much blood. Finally the ambulance crew evacuated him by taking him out by the back wall that employees had broken down earlier. Having been present in the Camp all morning, I can testify that any Palestinian fighters had stopped shooting a good two hours before either of us was wounded. When I passed the UN compound in the morning, it was surrounded by Israeli Army snipers and soldiers who were shooting erratically into the Camp. Two people were killed and six wounded. All but one were shot by tank fire outside what the Army deemed a closed military zone. I was not caught up in any kind of crossfire as the Israeli Occupation Forces are falsely stating, and I don't believe that Iain was either. The massacre has not stopped. Human rights violations and war crimes seen so blatantly across the world in April of this year continue on a daily basis in Jenin. Yesterday, with the casual killings that marked it, was not an unusual day in Jenin. It has become a potentially suicidal act to engage in the most basic acts of survival. The Israeli Occupation Forces engage again and again in a shoot- to-kill policy without regard as to whether its targets are civilians or armed fighters. Israelis have been shown in April that they can get away with a massacre, and that all the international condemnation in the world cannot get one ambulance in to evacuate a wounded person. Thus the lack of accountability on Israel's part has become bolder as the events witnessed yesterday become almost standard. These are not military campaigns. They are acts of terror designed to humiliate, brutalize, and bully Palestinians into subjugation. They are being denied not only the right to resist, but to exist. IP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-04-2002 11:50 AM
Wow. It's amazing how the Middle East gets more and more depressing with each passing day. There has to be answers to this but I have no idea what they are. IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger Punk Posts: 858 Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 11:58 AM
quote: Originally posted by owen: Wow. It's amazing how the Middle East gets more and more depressing with each passing day. There has to be answers to this but I have no idea what they are.
Yep.. it's a quagmire, to be sure. But starting another war there and continuing to prop up the Saudi government certainly aren't helping any. We need to send Jimmy Carter over there with a blank check to sort out the Palistinian/Isreali issue. IP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-04-2002 12:27 PM
Oh dear, no more throwing money at problems please. Question; how is it that Saudi Arabia has us by the short hairs? Is it simply fuel? If so, it's time all of us gave up our cars.IP: Logged |
Kubler Punk Posts: 700 Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 12:34 PM
i was really begining to worry this thread had been totally eclipsed. you give me hope.... i don't think this account is at all objective. but i do think it illustrates the absolute hopelessness of the situation. it just sucks. IP: Logged |
Evil Angel Punk Posts: 1662 Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 12:38 PM
Not only violence alone, but lack of freedom.Have you guys watched "The Circle"? It's about how limited to freedom the Middle Eastern Women have. They have to have a document to prove they have husband, male-role model and so on. My brother was in Arabia after the Gulf War, and he hated the fact the women don't have no rights. I reminded him that we have Syrian blood in our family. [This message has been edited by Evil Angel (edited 12-04-2002).] IP: Logged |
Katha Lil Punk Posts: 1 Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 12:40 PM
I'm here in Israel right now, so I think I will reply to this...I haven't got some profound answer to the Palestinian/Israeli problem though. The Settlers in the west bank aren't going to leave I think they'd rather die. Ariel Sharon will surely be elected again, and he lets the settlers literally get away with murder, not to mention the army in the west bank. Important to remember that America gives Israel pretty much all the money Israel has, so obviously America has some pull here but they aren't using it. Besides that the society is just crumbeling, the economy is horrid, people are cruel to eachother, its filthy, everyone thinks they will die in suicide attacks...I feel like soemthing has got to break. Soon I return to Minneapolis! Horay.  IP: Logged |
monty carlos Punk Posts: 1127 Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 12:45 PM
And get killed in a suicide attack from some over zealous TCPunk who took offense to your post!!!IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger Punk Posts: 858 Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 12:55 PM
quote: Originally posted by Katha: Important to remember that America gives Israel pretty much all the money Israel has, so obviously America has some pull here but they aren't using it.
You bring up a very valid point. I think we need a carrot and stick approach, with the potential withholding of that aid to be the stick, the peace potential being the carrot.IP: Logged |
Kubler Punk Posts: 700 Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 01:23 PM
quote: Originally posted by Katha: Important to remember that America gives Israel pretty much all the money Israel has, so obviously America has some pull here but they aren't using it.
i think this is a bit of a misconception. israel is not a developing nation. and the clout america carries is minimal. as far as the US 'using it', we're not necessarily trying to deter israel from using military force. in fact, it only makes america look tame in terms of sanctioned violence. IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger Punk Posts: 858 Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 01:30 PM
quote: Originally posted by Kubler: i think this is a bit of a misconception. israel is not a developing nation. and the clout america carries is minimal. as far as the US 'using it', we're not necessarily trying to deter israel from using military force. in fact, it only makes america look tame in terms of sanctioned violence.
Isreal receives, I believe, the largest % of foreign aid the US gives out. The issue of the lack of clout comes from the fact that this $$ has never been made into an issue and been put on the table as part of the bargining process (not in any serious way, I don't think). I guess my thought was that it be tied more closely to the peace process. IP: Logged |
Finn McCool Punk Posts: 500 Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 03:59 PM
OmniTouch Representative: "The government needs to spend its money on more important things, such as anti-tobacco programs, pro-tobacco programs, killing wild donkeys, and Israel."Homer: "Good old government." IP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-04-2002 04:21 PM
quote: Originally posted by Kubler: i don't think this account is at all objective.
So who is this person Koob? I'd love to know what her background is. Hell, for alls I know, she probably has a thing for getting shot while in war ravaged areas of the world. You know, one of those people  It's funny, I was gonna start a thread just like this but decided against it because I've already found myself in the middle of too much ill will around here.
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Kubler Punk Posts: 700 Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 05:44 PM
i don't know the woman. the e mail was sent to me by a friend who is involved with an organization out of chicago. i guess i shouldn't say "isn't at all objective", but i tend to treat so much with a bit of skepticism. what events actually took place you or i will never know.i started the thread in hopes it would distract from all the ill will. i know there are a lot of people that post here that feel our current situation in the mid east is maybe worth discussing. IP: Logged |
Evil Angel Punk Posts: 1662 Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 05:48 PM
I just came across this. US propose compromise on Iraq Oil, Food Plan here's the link http://dailynews.attbi.com/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=021204&cat=news&st=newsiraqunoildc What they were saying "you give us oil, we'll give you food." WTF! [This message has been edited by Evil Angel (edited 12-04-2002).] [This message has been edited by Evil Angel (edited 12-04-2002).] IP: Logged |
stu Punk Posts: 299 Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 12-04-2002 07:24 PM
I may be wrong, but isn't it something of a misconception that the US doles out tons of money in foreign aid? As I understand it (I make no claim to this being fact, so if someone can honestly refute me please do so) most countries get millions of dollars each from the US in aid. With Israel being the greatest recipient of the foreign aid dollars I have no idea what their total allotment is... Anyway, millions of dollars sure ain't much when compared to an entire county's national economy, even the poor ones. As far as pulling money out of Israel to get them to ease up on their brutish occupation of designated Palestinian lands I doubt it would have that great of an effect, not even taking in to account how unlikely it would be that the money would be withheld in the first place. Opinions and attitudes are so ingrained in that little corner of the world I think the Israelis would push ahead, even without US backing. What good has putting a choke hold on the Iraqi economy done in getting Iraq to comply with UN sanctions? Very little, in my opinion. IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger Punk Posts: 858 Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 07:44 PM
quote: Originally posted by stu: I may be wrong, but isn't it something of a misconception that the US doles out tons of money in foreign aid? As I understand it (I make no claim to this being fact, so if someone can honestly refute me please do so) most countries get millions of dollars each from the US in aid. With Israel being the greatest recipient of the foreign aid dollars I have no idea what their total allotment is... Anyway, millions of dollars sure ain't much when compared to an entire county's national economy, even the poor ones. As far as pulling money out of Israel to get them to ease up on their brutish occupation of designated Palestinian lands I doubt it would have that great of an effect, not even taking in to account how unlikely it would be that the money would be withheld in the first place. Opinions and attitudes are so ingrained in that little corner of the world I think the Israelis would push ahead, even without US backing. What good has putting a choke hold on the Iraqi economy done in getting Iraq to comply with UN sanctions? Very little, in my opinion.
On the first part, you are right. It's a popular target for the Right Wing to complain about, but as a % of GNP, the US government is really pretty miserly. On the other hand, if you add in private contributions it brings it up to a respectible amount--except that a lot of these go to crap like bibles and building churches and crap.On the second point, I think you need to take into account the perception that when a US-made helicopter swoops over your village shooting US-supplied missiles and blowing your baby sister to bits, that the US is somehow the enemy, along with the Isrealis. Peace in that arena is the #1 issue with the Arab world.. not the hunt for Bin Laden or Saddam Hussain's downfall. We'd get a lot more cooperation on our issues if we showed a more proactive approach in helping them with theirs. [This message has been edited by The Artful Dodger (edited 12-04-2002).] IP: Logged |
stu Punk Posts: 299 Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 12-04-2002 07:58 PM
quote: Originally posted by The Artful Dodger: On the second point, I think you need to take into account the perception that when a US-made helicopter swoops over your village shooting US-supplied missiles and blowing your baby sister to bits, that the US is somehow the enemy, along with the Isrealis. Peace in that arena is the #1 issue with the Arab world.. not the hunt for Bin Laden or Saddam Hussain's downfall. We'd get a lot more cooperation on our issues if we showed a more proactive approach in helping them with theirs.
Good point, I guess I was referring strictly to the money, forgetting that it's not all hard cash, but also equipment and such. As far as peace being the #1 concern of Arabs, that may be true, but still misleading. Everyone wants peace, but usually on their terms. Hell, Hitler wanted peace, but it was a peace with his enemies and "inferior races" eliminated from the Earth. Look, I'm no apologist for Sharon and the Israeli occupation, quite the opposite, but I get the most hopeless when I remember that Arafat walked away from Palestinian statehood and shared domain of Jerusalem back in 2000. It may not have been everything he wanted, but he didn't even negotiate from that point. He walked away. I may be wrong, but this always told me that Arafat and his followers (perhaps not all Palestinans, but Arafat's supporters) aren't interested in sharing any part of the area with Israel and the Jews. They want them out. [This message has been edited by stu because he can't type (edited 12-04-2002).] [This message has been edited by stu (edited 12-04-2002).] IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger Punk Posts: 858 Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 08:03 PM
quote: Originally posted by stu: ... Arafat walked away from Palestinian homeland and shared domain of Jerusalem back in 2000. It may not have been everything he wanted, but he didn't even negotiate from that point. He walked away. I may be wrong, but this always told me that Arafat and his followers (perhaps not all Palestinans, but Arafat's supporters) aren't interested in sharing any part of the area with Israel and the Jews. They want them out.
Yeah.. I never understood that move.. that was the best deal he was ever going to get. I'm not sure I agree that it showed much more than he simply isn't a very good negotiator. I'm sympathetic to the Palastinian plight, but they need to find somebody other than Arafat to follow. There is that one woman.. I forget her name... IP: Logged |
Patti Pagan Punk Posts: 1401 Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 12-04-2002 09:33 PM
Hanan Ashrawi!! She's incredible, a Christian & a woman yet commands respect from many quarters. According to a google hit, she's got a PhD in medieval lit from U Va., that I didn't know.IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger Punk Posts: 858 Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-04-2002 09:54 PM
quote: Originally posted by Patti Pagan: Hanan Ashrawi!! She's incredible, a Christian & a woman yet commands respect from many quarters. According to a google hit, she's got a PhD in medieval lit from U Va., that I didn't know.
Is that her name? I see her on the Sunday morning talk shows (I'm a junkie for Meet The Press and those shows) from time to time. She seems decidedly more realistic and pragmatic about the situation over there. Very smart woman indeed.IP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-05-2002 11:11 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/12/04/global.survey/index.html Survey shows rising discontent with U.S. 44-nation poll According to a new survey, discontent with the U.S. has grown around the world, but most people still like most things American.
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Discontent with the United States has grown around the world in the past two years but there is still widespread goodwill toward the country and its citizens, according to a survey released Wednesday. The Pew Research Center conducted the survey of more than 38,000 people in 44 countries, called "What the World Thinks in 2002." The survey found that since 2000, favorable ratings for the United States have fallen in 20 of the 27 countries for which the previous data was available. But in 17 of those 20 countries, a majority of people still viewed the United States favorably. The survey highlighted conflicting attitudes about the United States. People around the world said they embrace American culture but decried U.S. influence on their societies. American unilateralism was criticized, although the U.S.-led war on terrorism enjoyed wide support outside the Muslim world. Disease, violence, nuclear weapons On other topics, the spread of disease was named the top global problem in more countries than any other international threat. Fear of religious and ethnic violence ranked second, with nuclear weapons running third. ? People in the United States, Canada and Western Europe expressed a greater satisfaction with their lives than did people in Eastern Europe, Asia and Africa. ? Canada, Uzbekistan and Vietnam were the only countries in which a majority of respondents had a favorable view of their nations' conditions. ? Vietnam was the only country in which a majority of respondents -- 51 percent -- said they had a positive view of the state of the world. ? A separate survey of people in the United States, Britain, France, Germany, Russia and Turkey found a split in opinion on whether and by what means Iraqi President Saddam Hussein should be removed from power. Perceptions of Iraq ? Large majorities in France, Germany and Russia said they opposed the use of force to remove Saddam, but majorities in all three countries said they considered Iraq a "great" or "moderate" danger. British respondents were evenly split on using force to remove Saddam, and 62 percent of Americans favored it. ? An overwhelming majority of Turks surveyed said they opposed allowing the United States and its allies to use bases in Turkey for military action against Iraq. ? Majorities of those surveyed in France, Germany and Russia said they thought a desire on the United States' part to control Iraqi oil, not the belief that Iraq is a threat, would be the reason behind any U.S. military action against Baghdad. Forty-four percent of British respondents agreed. ? Two-thirds of Americans surveyed said the United States is willing to use force because it believes Iraq is a threat.
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owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-05-2002 11:16 AM
quote: Originally posted by Patti Pagan: Hanan Ashrawi!! She's incredible, a Christian & a woman yet commands respect from many quarters. According to a google hit, she's got a PhD in medieval lit from U Va., that I didn't know.
Dr. Hanan Ashrawi The life and times of Dr. Hanan Ashrawi [Caption] In 1988, ABC's "Nightline" aired a three-hour discussion between four Palestinians and four Israelis. A member of the Palestinian team, Dr. Hanan Ashrawi, was then a relatively unknown figure -- a Dean at a Palestinian Anglican University and a political activist. Appearing on live American television for the first time, Hanan Ashrawi was about to blast onto the political arena. As a woman, a Christian and an articulate and eloquent speaker -- Dr. Ashrawi's appearance shattered a number of Western stereotypes about Palestinians. Educated in the West, with a doctorate in medieval literature from the University of Virginia, Dr. Ashrawi understood how to cross cultural boundaries and make Palestinian issues clear and identifiable to people outside the Middle East. ABC News describes her as a person who "masterfully conducts press conferences and interviews, controlling the topics of discussion, dodging uncomfortable issues and cutting off what she considers irrelevant questions". Back in 1988, she was one of the first Palestinian figures to transcend the media's popular "terrorist" stereotype and present the more realistic image of Palestinians as victims of oppression. [Hanan Ashrawi] [Caption] Hanan Ashrawi was born to a wealthy Palestinian family in 1946 -- just 2 years before Israel became a country, in what Palestinians call "Al-Nakba" or "the Disaster." She grew up in the West Bank town of Ramallah, outside Jerusalem. When Israel's Six-Day War broke out in 1967, Ashrawi was just 22 years old, and a student of English Literature at the American University of Beirut in Lebanon. By the end of the War, which really did last six days, Israel had control over the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem and West Bank, including Ashrawi's home town. At the time, the Israeli government passed a law, which labeled anyone who was not in the country an "absentee". "Absentee's" like Ashrawi had no legal status, and were not allowed to return to Israel. For the next six years, Ashrawi traveled and continued her studies overseas. Studying for her PhD in Virginia, Ashrawi gained part of her education in dissent and activism from the growing Women's Movement in the US. Finally, in September 1973, she was granted permission to return home, and, if she wanted, resettle. One month later, Egypt and Syria attacked the Israeli Occupied Territories, marking the beginning of what is called the Yom Kippur War. Back in Israel, Ashrawi was offered a prestigious position as chair of the Department of English at Bir Zeit University, an old Anglican Teacher's College. First as chair of the Department of English, and later as Dean of Faculty of Arts, Ashrawi became actively involved in the Palestinian cause. She participated in speeches, performances and demonstrations, and founded and led the Bir Zeit University Legal Aid Committee and Human Rights Action Project. After her successful 1988 appearance on live American television, Ashrawi became even more active and involved -- joining the Palestinian Diplomatic Committee and the Intifada Political Committee. Then, in 1991, Yasser Arafat appointed her as Official Spokesperson of the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East Peace Process. At that time, the American government still had not officially acknowledged the Palestinian cause, and would not conduct official discussions with Yasser Arafat. The Oslo Peace Accords and the Arafat/Rabin/Peres Nobel Peace Prize were still two years away. Nevertheless, at the peace conference in Madrid, Dr. Ashrawi astonished the world by upstaging her Israeli counterpart, a man who would later become Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu. Vocabulary: eloquent - expressive and clear candid - openness or impartial ideological - concerned with ideas As Ashrawi's prestige and influence grew, she became Palestinian Minister of Higher Education and Research, and for one year, Head of the Political Committee. In 1993, she was one of the founders of the Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizen's Rights and also is currently a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council for Jerusalem. In 1998, however, Ashrawi resigned from the government in protest against political corruption, specifically Arafat's handling of peace talks. At the same time, she founded MIFTAH -- the Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy. MIFTAH's mission is to "foster the principles of democracy and effective dialogue based on the free and candid exchange of information and ideas". Essentially, MIFTAH aims to promote the Palestinian cause by providing "updated, accurate and reliable information and analyses on all aspects of Palestinian reality" as well as networking with like minded organizations, regionally and globally. The ultimate goal is a respect for human rights, democracy and peace. MIFTAH reflects Dr. Ashrawi's drive to end to Israeli occupation on humanitarian, rather than historical or ideological, grounds. Read more about a documentary focusing on Dr. Ashrawi's life Whether she is fighting for the cause of her people, or standing up to corruption and abuse of power by her own leaders, Dr. Ashrawi has consistently set an example of courage and integrity. She is undeniably an inspirational figure, a powerful woman in a world of big boys and their guns and an articulate and outspoken activist for democracy, human rights, and the Palestinian cause. IP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-05-2002 09:37 PM
Well, looks like I've killed another thready. Mwhaahahahhahahaha!IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger Punk Posts: 858 Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-06-2002 08:48 AM
quote: Originally posted by owen: Well, looks like I've killed another thready. Mwhaahahahhahahaha!
No no.. we were all just meditating quietly on your wise and thought-provoking post. I, for one, think she would be a far better leader for the Palestinians than Yassir Arafat. I dunno', I might get caught like a deer in the headlights with this statement, but...I think women in many cases make much better leaders and mediators
[This message has been edited by The Artful Dodger (edited 12-06-2002).] IP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-06-2002 12:05 PM
"I know who you really are," Owen yells as he rips off Dodger's mask revealing...IP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-06-2002 12:06 PM
long pauseIP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-06-2002 12:08 PM
...ALAN ALDA!!!You know who I think makes great leaders? Great leaders. Regardless of sex, race, creed or schwatever, great leaders make great leaders. Now there's thought provoking for ya'. Oh, and one other thing smart guy, I posted that stuff cuz some of us (me) had no idea who she was. As for the middle east thingy, the thing that was significant in the network news reports on it was that our dealings with the Middle East debacle was rapidly turning the Arab nations against us. (Grumbles) "NPR listenin', NY Times readin', commie-ass mutha..."  [This message has been edited by owen (edited 12-06-2002).] IP: Logged |
The Artful Dodger Punk Posts: 858 Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-06-2002 12:24 PM
quote: Originally posted by owen:
You know who I think makes great leaders? Great leaders. Regardless of sex, race, creed or schwatever, great leaders make great leaders. Now there's thought provoking for ya'.
Calm down, Owen--remember your blood pressure. There are measurable differences between the sexs in, among other things, communication skills--essential in negotiating. I have meetings, otherwise I'd go into this deeper.IP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-06-2002 12:26 PM
I'm calm, just goofing. I'm sure you have many valid points and I look forward to hearing them. But this feels like a generalization, and those are NEVER right.  IP: Logged |
Patti Pagan Punk Posts: 1401 Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 12-06-2002 01:12 PM
quote: Originally posted by owen: <snip> But this feels like a generalization, and those are NEVER right. 
May I quote you Owen?  IP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-06-2002 01:27 PM
Why on earth would you want to make yourself sound like an idiot. Quoting me is NEVER a good idea.IP: Logged |
Patti Pagan Punk Posts: 1401 Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 12-06-2002 02:28 PM
I think you're over-generalizing. IP: Logged |
owen Punk Posts: 1499 Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-06-2002 03:52 PM
You ALWAYS think I over-generalize!IP: Logged | |